Encouraging Reviews

[Garmonbozia]

In another thread Jinn expressed an interest in hearing ideas for encouraging people to review stories. I have thought about this a little and a few ideas I can come up with really mean a lot more effort for Jinn but I'll get the ball rolling and hope someone else can add to the list and we can really provide a few workable ideas to not only promote reviews but reader response to the author as well. Some people really only need something little to shock them out of their laziness.

One idea I had was for authors of a story to have some feedback on the reviewing process. Say they got a particularly foolish review they could weight that reviewer poorly, or if they got a review that was particularly insightful they could rate the reviewer highly. This way a users profile could be given a reviewers grade, to see which users reviews were worthwhile and which were thoughtless. This idea is really a bit of a pipe dream though and it has a few flaws: I have an idea that the top reviewers would always be the same people and they also would be authors on the site and so it may not particularly get new people reviewing, it would also mean a lot of work for Jinn and then there is the question of what incentive, other than being thought intelligent and insightful, there would be to write reviews with substance. A byproduct though could be a page where you could list the top reviewers, people who had been judged by the various authors themselves to be knowledgable and of good taste, and they could list maybe their top 25 stories or something like that. This would give users a way to see what some of the best stories on the site are, apart from the relatively simple (and sometimes misleading) review star basis we have now.

Of course a foolproof way to get reviews would be for all the authors to go on strike. I wrote this as a joke in the other thread but it does have some merit, but also brings a rather hefty consequence that I would not wish to be responsible for - people may not visit the site as much and I would not want to disadvantage Jinn in any way. But if you are writing a serial story and say that you won't post further chapters, and tease people by saying you have 3 already finished, until a few reviews are written or you get some response by email that could work. I really wouldn't want to do that though and it was only said in jest. But alternative idea, that came from it may work to some degree.

If an author in the introduction to their story/chapter made a little statement that they were becoming a little disinfranchised with writing stories and not really knowing if anyone was interested in them and they were thinking of stopping then maybe that would get a better reader response, use guilt to get the lazy buggers to write even one sentence telling you they like the story.

I really think a lot of people don't write simply because they don't know what it means to the author. I have said elsewhere I was a lurker for a while. When I first decided to write to an author to tell them how much I enjoyed their story it was for Owned Teacher. The reply I got really shocked me and really made me think a little about why I hadn't done it before. Since then I have tried to write to all the authors whose work I have enjoyed or been impressed by, if they supply an email address, or review their story if they don't.

So maybe the best idea I have is that a small (or not so small) notice could be put at the top of the update page with words to the effect that: the authors who place their stories on this site are not getting paid for their work and so to show your appreciation, for all the hard work they put in to make the site what it is, review their story if you like it (and then maybe a link on how to review) or send them a short note by email. You have no idea how much a small word of thanks can mean to these so delicate of individuals.

If that is there at the top of the page each time a user visits the story update page then maybe, just maybe, they will be prompted to contact just one author, just once. But if that happens for even half the readers then I think there will be many an author who would be beaming with happiness and pride.

Just a few rambling thoughts. I am sure someone has some better, and more practical, ideas than those.

Jason

[Garmonbozia]

I know my previous message was quite long and there was a point I did not want to be missed amid the ramble.

One of the readers who contacted me via email did not know how to place a review. Many of the readers here are a little unaware of the whole forum section and only come to read the stories. A possible variation on the 'Notice Idea' I mentioned at the end of my previous message, could simply be a 'How to Review' notice at the top of the Update Page, so it is a little more visible, with the added bonus of more people becoming aware of and enjoying these forums.

Alternatively if you wanted to be a bit of a hardass, and let's face it a hell of a lot of the internet is already there and a lot more headed in the same direction, you could make everyone first login to access the site (free of course). This would make people a little more aware of the other features of the site and make reviewing a much easier process, as I would suggest that a lot of the readers are not members of anything and are simply using the story library exclusively, not that there's anything wrong with that.

By the way it is almost impossible to offend me so if you think any of these ideas are bollocks just let me know.

Jason

[Alex Bragi]

If an author in the introduction to their story/chapter made a little statement that they were becoming a little disinfranchised with writing stories and not really knowing if anyone was interested in them and they were thinking of stopping then maybe that would get a better reader response, use guilt to get the lazy buggers to write even one sentence telling you they like the story.

No, Jason, I don't believe it's the readers who are the 'lazy buggers' so much as many of the authors themselves. How much effort does it take to say 'thanks for the review', and perhaps a quick comment?

Of the reviews I've given probably one in twenty has responded one way or the other. And I know I'm not Robinson Cruiso out there either. If I've been able to be helpful or encouraging it's nice to know. If the author believes I'm right off track with my rating or review, or if perhaps I've misunderstood or misinterpreted something, I need to know that also. Feedback on my feedback if you like.

It's my, personal, opinion that more readers would review if they got some kind of response.


Alex.

[boccaccio2000g]

No, Jason, I don't believe it's the readers who are the 'lazy buggers' so much as many of the authors themselves. How much effort does it take to say 'thanks for the review', and perhaps a quick comment?



Alex.

It's harder (IMO) to write an interesting reply to a review, especially a short one, than it is to write a review. I suppose a string of "Thanks for taking the time to read and review my story!" replies is courteous, but, personally I'm not bothered if the author doesn't reply to a run-of-the-mill review. Occasionally, I'll write a more expansive time-consuming review, though, and in those cases it is nice to get a thoughtful reply.

Boccaccio

[boccaccio2000g]

Regarding sugeneg's interesting proposals:

1) I think allowing the authors to "evaluate" reviewers would inhibit more reviewers than it would encourage. Besides we can do that informally anyway with the response mechanism.

2) The idea of 'rating' or honoring the "good" reviewers has some merit, but I don't think there's much likelihood that any reviewer's 25 "favorite" stories would be at all representative of the 'best' 25 stories on the site (which would be impossible to identify anyway). Most reviewers, like most readers, probably confine limit themselves to stories whose themes attract them. A listing of favorites would probably tell more about the reviewer's tastes, than the quality of the stories.

3) The 'going on strike' or 'I'm holding my breath until I get some e-mails and reviews from you bastards!" has some appeal. ;-) But I question the value and sincerity of a review that has been extorted.

4) I do agree that most reviewers have little understanding how much even a brief "great story!" can mean to an author; one could write at some length about whether this lack of emotional/sexual empathy might possibly be what brings us some to this relatively private pleasure in the first place, but I'll leave that to the psychoanalysts.

5) I do think that having to 'register' is an inhibiting factor; I'm sure that a great many readers have strong feelings about guilt/privacy/fear of exposure, if their family, friends, co-workers were to learn about their reading tastes. I suspect that the registration process is necessary to create a data base of reviews that can be tallied, searched, sorted, averaged etc (and I appreciate all those features). You are right that a brief paragraph explaining how (and why!) to register and review might help a bit. But unless one can wave a magic wand and guarantee that any posts to the site (or e-mails to the author) are absolutely untraceable, I think the 'fear factor' will always be there for some people.

Thanks for a thought-provoking post,

Boccaccio

[Garmonbozia]

Thanks for shooting my ideas full of holes, I 'll just spend the next half hour picking up the little pieces of my ego from off the floor, ooh there's a bit and i think there's a bit under the table

Well I came up with those very quickly and really as a means of getting the issue out and hoping someone else might have a better and more practical idea.

boccaccio, I had not thought of the fear factor in regards to the contacting of authors or the joining of the site. I haven't any qualms about those kinds of things and guess I do judge a little more by my own example than I should. It's something I will have to think about. It's not hard to create a hotmail account or a yahoo account though. I now use my hotmail account for everything, it is just so much more flexible and user friendly than outlook.

Once again Alex, I try to write a response to each review so I guess I haven't thought about those authors who don't. But to be disappointed that your review didn't get a response you must first have written at least one. So you have to admit there are a lot of lazy buggers out there.

It also comes down to actually what you want to review. This has been covered in another thread but for me: I don't review atrociously written stories, they will disappear on their own; I don't review stories which I found to be uninteresting, usually because subject matter was not to my taste (ie story codes a little misleading); I don't review stories which don't attract me in the first place (snuff, m/f etc) because I simply don't read them, no matter how well written they may be. So the type of stories I will even bother to review is quite limited and I usually use the process simply to rate a story I think is good so other people can see it is good and hopefully enjoy it as well. For most other things (if a story had promise but went off the rails, suggesting an improvement, or simply praising the author) I respond by email directly.

The thread is entitled 'encouraging reviews' but that really encompasses all types of story response. I am personally quite happy with my response/reviews. I don't know why I have attained the response I have, maybe it is because there aren't a lot of stories in that genre, but I am all for helping other authors to feel acclaimed because I know they deserve it.

Jason

[Aurelius]

(If you read this story, and especially you enjoyed it too, please review it or send an email to author. Authors deserve that. And your comments will encourage them to write more and better.)

This is the current reminder on the download page. It's good, but people are so familiar with it that they probably don't see it anymore.

What about varying the text, the colours, fonts etc, so that the reader is less likely to ignore it?

If Jinn would be willing to refresh this with something new every week or two, then perhaps the author/contributors would be able to compose some witty, hard hitting, blackmailing, pity-invoking, encouraging, and inspiring nags.

e.g.

(This is an off the cuff example!)

This site costs a lot of money to host.This story and others, cost the authors a lot of their spare time.Dear reader, please take a moment to give something back to this site by reviewing the story or sending a message the author.

[JakBird]

I don't believe using a stick to beat some kind of feedback out of readers would be productive. The review process is something like voting for politicians; those who choose not to participate make the efforts of the rest all the more valuable.

Regarding the comment about responding to reviewers, I answer email but do not directly respond to posted reviews, in part because many of the reviewers have email blocked. I always, always, respond to any comments on email as long as the return address is valid.

The one exception was a recent one line email from someone stating I was a bad writer but did not elaborate on my many failings in the pursuit of literary excellence. I would ask the sender to provide a bit more detail next time. And a valid address would help as well.

Many of the technical news sites I read now include a quick rating at the end of the article. It consists of selecting a 1 (worst) to 9 (best) rating, plus space to send a comment. I would like to see something like this for the stories, with the addition of a 0 (no interest) to signify looking at the story but finding it wasn't to taste.

I do like the idea of giving some exposure to diligent reviewers. It would be nice to see some kind of scorecard of who sent in reviews, how many, *and* the average length of the review text. Someone who did three thousand one-word reviews isn't offering much in the way of an opinion. Someone who did ten reviews with an average of over a thousand words I would take the time to read. And the stories that got that kind of a review would draw my attention.

One other idea would be some kind of FAQ as a guide to what might go into a detailed review. Was the dialog realistic, were the characters cardboard, was the style compelling, did the plot hold the reader's interest? And other technical points, like the accuracy of the story codes, spelling, grammar, punctuation (or lack thereof).

I take pride in my stories (okay, maybe some more than others). I put in a lot of time to do the best I can. I do it because I want to produce stories people enjoy reading, perhaps even attempt some kind of commercial effort in the future. I know I'm not at the point where I could send something to a publisher, but each story I learn a little bit more about what it takes.

Amateur sites like this are invaluable as a training ground for the wannabe Steinbeck (or maybe I should say Poe, considering the material). From the number of hits on each story and the positive reviews (but so few!) I assume the stories do have an audience so I make the assumption I'm headed in the right direction. And that's why authors need reviews, to get some sense of what works and what doesn't resonate with the reader.

So let's find some carrots instead of sticks for future reviewers. Make it fast and easy for a quick rating, and give some pointers for those willing to expand on their opinion but who don't know where to start.

[Xue Lan]

This is an interesting thread to me for several reasons.

First, it does not contain the usual egocentric blockhead suggestion of “only authors should be allowed to review stories”, and the related disrespecting of the readers like me. I congratulate those who have posted here on this, you are taking time to think out your responses and suggestions.

It is interesting too because it says so much about the psychology of those who write, because he/she is looking for recognition for his/her work. Fox describes himself as “an entertainer who must have applause” and that is a big part of who he is and what he does. It is interesting because he rarely seeks a byline on his real-life work and is always thrilled to see it in print or on television. It is nice to know he’s not alone in this

Your suggestions, some are good, some are bad.

A writer’s strike is foolish stamping of your feet.

Rating the reviewers is also not good for how do ensure that one person’s “6” is less than another person’s “7.5?

Reviewing is very subjective and unless you have a rigid point system, you are going to experience flux in the scoring. In sport, you either score a goal or you don’t. But just because I like Jane’s story and you don’t does not mean I am a better reviewer than you. I like Jackson Pollack, Fox prefers Matisse. Is Pollack better than Matisse? Is my judgement better than his? (Actually it is LOL )

Okay, how do you get more reviews? Maybe the reward system ?. Every time a reader reviews a story complete with written comments, she gets one point. When she gets so many points, a one-week membership in the paid site is given. The validity of the reviews will quickly be evident.

As to messages saying writers work hard, sorry but my response is “pah! My time is important to me too, why should I spend my time reading your story?” You should use sugar not vinegar to attract reviewers.

I will be direct and honest. No matter what, you are not going to significantly increase the number of reviewers, number of reviews, or e-mails you receive. Look at the forums – it is, for the most part, the same people all the time. Reviewers are the same too.

As a reader, if I want to review a story, I will. You cannot persuade me to do otherwise if I don’t want to. I don’t write letters to the editor, I don’t write to Anne Rice or Margaret Laurence, and I don’t go to my local bookstore or video store to say “I like this because”. But I read, all the time. Yesterday we bought a hundred dollars of books.

If I like the story, I read other stories by that author. If I’m in the mood or don’t have other things to read too.

If I really like the story, I tell other people about it.

Fox posted stories here because he could get feedback from others. He never expected to get a thousand reviews for a story, just five or six. He learns something from each one. He got many reviews and e-mails from his own website, but it was too much work to keep replying to them all – a hundred e-mails in a week means a hundred thank yous. Sometimes people reply to that too.

This is a good thread, keep discussing it, please, because it is important.

[EstabanBacca]

The reviewing format on this site, coupled with the forum threads, offers writers more feedback than that of any site I've visited. It is comparatively user friendly.

I personally do not care for a 1-10 rating system. Those little stars are often misleading and readers would be better off without them. Author's shouldn't miss them as they are totally unenlightening.Get rid of the fucking things! The written reviews and the author's ability to respond are all that is necessary. Use those stars for rating restaurants ( where again even with five stars you may often find yourself served flat fare at a fat price.)

As to obtaining more reader response...my own thought is that an author's best chance of provoking the reader lies with the story he or she writes.

[boccaccio2000g]

The reviewing format on this site, coupled with the forum threads, offers writers more feedback than that of any site I've visited. It is comparatively user friendly. I personally do not care for a 1-10 rating system. Those little stars are often misleading and readers would be better off without them.

With all respect, I strongly disagree. Maybe it's my unsophisticated baseball card mentality, but I think the stars provide a useful, easily understood shorthand. One or two "votes" can be misleading, but if a story has half a dozen or more recent reviews, I almost never find myself grading a story more than two points above or below the average score. I think the consensus of reviewers here, on the whole, is usually quite accurate -- and is better now ( the last year or two) than it has ever been. Oddly, some of the stories whose reviews I tend to disagree with most are stories that have been around for quite a while (including one or two of the all-time 'faves'). I think that the grading standards have risen appreciably (and that's a good thing) since Jinn added the 'captions' * that accompany the 1-10 scores on the reviewing page a year and a half of two years ago.

* Marcus' suggestion, as I recall.

Boccaccio

[Aurelius]

Your suggestions, some are good, some are bad.
...Reviewing is very subjective...

As to messages saying writers work hard, sorry but my response is “pah! My time is important to me too, why should I spend my time reading your story?” You should use sugar not vinegar to attract reviewers.

... but suggestions and ideas for getting more reader feedback are not subjective, apparently. You pronounce that most of them are bad! Why not try to be a little more constructive instead of using the thread as yet another platform to boast of how wonderful a writer your Fox is?

[JakBird]

Just what constitutes a "good" review? What is useful to the author, and what helps the reader decide if the story might be worth reading?

It's easy to claim any review is purely subjective. Everyone has an opinion, but not all opinions are equally valid. A review that provides some insight (from someone other than the author!) in the form of reasons for the subjective thumbs up or down is a real contribution to the whole community here, every bit as important as the library of stories. A one liner "this wuz gud" or the all-encompassing "bad" may be the most eloquent expression the reviewer was able to type, but it doesn't really help anyone else.

In a previous post I mentioned the idea of a review FAQ. To elaborate, here are some items I'd like to see addressed in a review (making them up as I go along):

Was the story entertaining? Was it worth the time spent reading? Did it hold your interest, did you think about what might happen next to the characters? Or did it quickly start to drag, too boring and repetitive?

Were the characters believable? Do people really talk that way? Were they completely predictable, cut from cardboard and stamped out in an assembly line? Could you identify with any of them? Did you want to be in their place?

Was there something unique about the story? There are only so many plots, but what about the way the narrative unfolds? Were the events and their outcome easy to predict, and disappointing in their stereotypical blandness?

What about the author's style, the choice of vocabulary, sentence structure, the way paragraphs and chapters break, even the punctuation? Was it distracting, or did it help the storyline?

And most important, did the story leave you wanting more?

That's my impromptu list. Anyone else have suggestions to add to it?

[Xue Lan]

What you suggest is very good. I know it would help me in writing a review.

Aurelius, I am sorry you take what I said so - strongly? I don't know the right word.
I am not making personal attacks, personal criticisms or remarks, just expressing my thoughts. I am sorry you think that all I am doing is promoting one individual - that is not what I said and it is not what I want to achieve - that is the opposite. I do not like everything he writes. I use him as an example because I know how he works and why he does what he does. Someone else said here that writers do what they do because they want recognition, I am agreeing with them.
I do not know you or Boccaccio or any other writer on this site to use them as an example. There are many good writers here, everyone works in a different way. I have never said anything else.

I speak my own mind, and sometimes I am direct. My time is valuable to me just like your time is to you. I can appreciate that, I take that into account. You want me to do something, ask me nice, don't hit me in the head with a hammer.

Last thing I am going to say is to quote EstebanBacca:

As to obtaining more reader response...my own thought is that an author's best chance of provoking the reader lies with the story he or she writes.

[Tiger]

Thank you all for the nice ideas. I think it's time for me to sum up all the suggestions.

1. Add reviews anonymously.
I think it could be a factor to require registration for reviewing. I can allow both registered and anonymous users to write reviews. There is no way to completely stop an anonymous reader to write reviews repeatedly. To avoid the anonymous reviews to overpower the registered user reviews, the final review score for a story will be, say:
60% from registered user reviews, 40% from anonymous reviews.

OR:
Allow only registered users to write reviews and vote, but anonymous users to vote only.

OR:
I can force (free) registration to read the stories. So everybody will be registered. I don't quite like that because I don't want to give readers an impression that this site is going to a pay-site direction.

2. Add FAQ.
It's a good idea to put some more FAQ entries to explain the anonymity of registration, how to write reviews, and how important it is to writers etc.

3. Point system for review rewarding.
I am thinking that too. For every review, you get 1-5 point. For every, say, 50 points, you get 1 month free access. There is just one thing: what's the criteria for getting points? Is every review count as 1? Should a good / long review get more points than a short, one-word review?

4. Associate each story to a thread in the forum.
So authors and readers would have a place to discuss a perticular story there.


What else did I miss?

[Mistress Blue]

I have received one review on my story "Who Says Marriage is Dull". I have also received a few emails. I have responded to the emails but I can't reply to the reviewer. For some reason I am constantly told that I'm not logged in and to go to the forum. I go to the forum and log in, hit refresh on the other page and nothing happens. This also happens when I try to review other stories. Has anyone else experienced this problem? What can I do to correct it? Thanks.

[Tiger]

Do you use IE browser? AOL browser is known having trouble with cookies.

[Garmonbozia]

I found that anti-spyware software will block a lot of cookies and so you will constantly be logged out everytime you change a page after logging in.

If you have something like spyware doctor of the myriad other programs turn off the cookie stopper while you browse and you can simply clear your cookies at the end of each session instead.

Jason

[Mistress Blue]

Thanks for the tips. I usually put most adult sites under the "restricted" zone and high security. Putting this site to internet zone and adjusting the cookie handling took care of the problem.

I still hope to get more reviews on my story "Who Says Marriage is Dull". Its had over 5200 readers and only one review. I'm a novice myself and would like some opinions from more veteran contributors.

Thanks.

[ackalon]

Well, I just read it (its at the top of the page I entred by!) and I found it highly entertaining, thanks Mistress Blue !

Howzat ?

[coyote]

As an author who contributes to the site I can say that I do look forward to any reviews or opinions of my product and, yes, I do think more readers should take the time to say a word or two. even if the word or two is detrimental. We do learn from all this.

The suggestion that reviewers be rated has some merit but we don't want to orchestrate here. The one thing that I can say is that a reviewer should not be able to "low grade" an authors product simply because he/she doesn't like the subject matter. I had this happen to me and it was not only disappointing but took an otherwise highly reviewed story and dropped it's rating severely. As so few readers DO review, one can have several 5 star reviews and the one that didn't like the subject matter can drop it's overall rating to a 3 regardless of the story's quality and appeal to the larger audience and that truly sucks.

Stories should never be rated on subject matter. What's unappealing to some may be the height of erotica to others. Sort of like saying "everything in the story was great but I'm not really into the ball gag thing so I give it a one".

Anyone agree?

[H Dean]

I happen to like the idea of reviewing stories with a numbered system for different categories.

The idea of a 1-10 (10 being best) with categories like story flow, content, writing skills (ie; grammatical) and maybe a few others would be a good way to rate these things.

I, for one, have been stymied by certain stories due to the fact that the flow was bad based on grammar. However, some of those tales were quite interesting and erotic.

As for a free membership...I tend to think that if an author contributes on a consistent basis, tales that are well liked and receive generally good reviews, that it might be worthwhile to provide free membership as a thanks to solid contributory participation. After all, a good writer will draw keep people coming back.

Also, you might want to encourage authros to report bad reviews that are based on idiotic reasons like - "Good story, but I don't like snuff, so I gave you a 1." And, if someone repeatedly makes reviews based on such criteria they should be restricted from reviewing since they shouldn't be reviewing anyway.

Dean

[alura]

I've been a member of a site called writing.com for years now. It is the number one writing site in the US today. There are many famous and well known authors that are members [anonymously]...all this to build up to........

....... MY point. They have an area where it gives a step by step breakdown guideline that really helps you get the logical and proper steps of reviewing burned into your brain. From what I understand, some parts of this guideline were submitted anonymously by the editors of the famous authors who are members.

You might want to go and check it out.

[Aurelius]

Coyote: The one thing that I can say is that a reviewer should not be able to "low grade" an authors product simply because he/she doesn't like the subject matter. I had this happen to me and it was not only disappointing but took an otherwise highly reviewed story and dropped it's rating severely.

Interesting point. At the Olympics (in ice skating, diving, boxing etc.) the lowest judge's vote is ignored to make a fairer and less corrupt rating.

The idea of entirely removing the reviews of destructive imbeciles also has merit. Witness: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/u....php?uid=10015

[zephyr]

I seldom make reviews but I've made some in the past. Most of the time, I haven't really got much to say and don't want to spam the reviews by making a review that has less than 10 words in it. I never let my kinks determine the rating of the stories that I read. Mostly I base it on grammar, development of the plot, etc.

Interesting point. At the Olympics (in ice skating, diving, boxing etc.) the lowest judge's vote is ignored to make a fairer and less corrupt rating.

The idea of entirely removing the reviews of destructive imbeciles also has merit. Witness: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/stories/u....php?uid=10015

Now that is definitely a user that should be banned from making reviews. He's destroying the ratings of perfectly good stories.

Btw, I recognize your name Aurelius. You're the only one who bothered to respond in a PM to say thanks for my writing a review for your story. It was a pretty nice thing to do.