BDSM And Feminism: Intertwined? How So?

[AdrianaAurora]

Another thread on whats "true". Thank you so much, how did I ever manage to live without being told what I am, is beyond me.

And as I said before, its all about women being mean and bitchy to other women.

I so love it when "soccer mom" types put me to my place.

I so love it when they dont bother to check what a WAG is, but label themselves one. Thanks for the laugh girls.

I especially love when women who dont know what "a lady" is call themslves one.

I so love it when women who label themselves "non feminists" spew feminists rehtoric.

I especially love women who live their lives one way, like have a job. But then tell me how all societies flaws are a blame of a working mother.

You bring this debate on a gibberish level that women and men are biologically equal because you have no better argument. And its something not even a most militant feminist would dispute. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. What they do claim is equal rights and equality. And some even superiority.

Do you know how my husband calls this thread? Jealousy thread!

Some of us are that strong, some of us can keep up and those that cant...- they are "ladies" and "not feminists".

I do concern myself with my career. I am one of, if not the best in my field. I take HUGE pride in that. I concern myself with my husband and my child just as much. My son is loved, well taken care of, accomplished and well behaved. I spend more time with him, than most "stay at homes" do.

I do not think I am "equal in all ways" to a man. I am. I proved it.

Am I better than all men in all things? No. But I am better than most men in most things, that includes intelligence and (physical) strength.

Am I better than all women in all things? No, (though my husband says, yes, lol). But I am better than most women in most things, that includes intelligence and strenght.

And do you know why there arent any Navy SEAL "females", beacuse women are NOT ALLOWED to be Navy SEALs!!! And it has about as much factual logic as does prohibiting gays in the military. If they were, I am sure you couldnt cut it, but there are those who could. Not many, but how many men are Navy SEALs either.


My great great grandmother was a feminist. My great grandmother was a feminist. My grandmother is a feminist. Even my beauty queen mother is a feminist. Every single one of them fought for equal rights, for fair treatment of themsleves and other women. Each of them earned their respect. So I dont need anyone to tell me how "good" and "perfect" place the world was for women back then, I heard the true "hard facts" from their lips and diaries. And each of them looked and behaved like a lady, in a manner you will never live up to.

I most certainly never chased my husband or any man. And once you get past all the romantic crap, the truth of the matter is - my husband married me because I wasnt a WAG, because I wasnt with him for his money. Because I didnt need him to take care of me, in any way, because he was fed up with all the little subs and their "rescue me" sob stories. He married me because I was His equal.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go emasculate some women.

[DowntownAmber]

Another thread on whats "true". Thank you so much, how did I ever manage to live without being told what I am, is beyond me.

And as I said before, its all about women being mean and bitchy to other women.

I so love it when "soccer mom" types put me to my place.

I so love it when they dont bother to check what a WAG is, but label themselves one. Thanks for the laugh girls.

I especially love when women who dont know what "a lady" is call themslves one.

I so love it when women who label themselves "non feminists" spew feminists rehtoric.

I especially love women who live their lives one way, like have a job. But then tell me how all societies flaws are a blame of a working mother.

You bring this debate on a gibberish level that women and men are biologically equal because you have no better argument. And its something not even a most militant feminist would dispute. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. What they do claim is equal rights and equality. And some even superiority.

Do you know how my husband calls this thread? Jealousy thread!

Some of us are that strong, some of us can keep up and those that cant...- they are "ladies" and "not feminists".

I do concern myself with my career. I am one of, if not the best in my field. I take HUGE pride in that. I concern myself with my husband and my child just as much. My son is loved, well taken care of, accomplished and well behaved. I spend more time with him, than most "stay at homes" do.

I do not think I am "equal in all ways" to a man. I am. I proved it.

Am I better than all men in all things? No. But I am better than most men in most things, that includes intelligence and (physical) strength.

Am I better than all women in all things? No, (though my husband says, yes, lol). But I am better than most women in most things, that includes intelligence and strenght.

And do you know why there arent any Navy SEAL "females", beacuse women are NOT ALLOWED to be Navy SEALs!!! And it has about as much factual logic as does prohibiting gays in the military. If they were, I am sure you couldnt cut it, but there are those who could. Not many, but how many men are Navy SEALs either.


My great great grandmother was a feminist. My great grandmother was a feminist. My grandmother is a feminist. Even my beauty queen mother is a feminist. Every single one of them fought for equal rights, for fair treatment of themsleves and other women. Each of them earned their respect. So I dont need anyone to tell me how "good" and "perfect" place the world was for women back then, I heard the true "hard facts" from their lips and diaries. And each of them looked and behaved like a lady, in a manner you will never live up to.

I most certainly never chased my husband or any man. And once you get past all the romantic crap, the truth of the matter is - my husband married me because I wasnt a WAG, because I wasnt with him for his money. Because I didnt need him to take care of me, in any way, because he was fed up with all the little subs and their "rescue me" sob stories. He married me because I was His equal.

Now if you will excuse me, I have to go emasculate some women.

Who are you referring to when you say "you?"

[lucy]

Who are you referring to when you say "you?"

Not me, obviously, since i didn't post here yet

Do you consider yourself a "feminist?"
Yes.
What is your definition of one?
A woman who doesn't accept that she's being paid 25% less for the same work as a guy. A woman who doesn't accept that she has to get a job and still care for the family and the home all alone. Luckily there are more and more men who realize that working 12 hours a day isn't what they want. The problem that most companies expect exactly that remains, thou.
Do you have a negative or positive view of feminists in general?
Highly positive. I wouldn't be where i am without the countless women who have fought for equality in the past, and still do.
Does feminism affect your day to day? How does it play into your BSDM lifestyle?
Hmm, day to day? Not really. I grew up in a time when being able to have a choice was normal for a girl. So i think a lot of things my mother had to struggle for are just normal for me.
Concerning BDSM it's about the same. I think feminism has made it possible for me to chose to submit, even if at the first moment one would think that's contradictory. And i sure had a problem with it, for quite some time, until i realized that submitting myself doesn't mean i can't be a strong woman (not a good description at all, but i can't think of a better one) at the same time.

I admit i have no idea what the current gender discussion is in the States. I do know however, that here one topic of the feminist discussion and political movement is about bringing fathers to take responsibility for raising their children together with the mother. Simply because children need both. And don't give me that crap with "quality time" spent by mostly absent fathers with their children. Time spent with children has no different qualities. You're either there with them or you aren't. Working 12 hours a day and leave caring for the family and the home to the wife just doesn't work. For anybody.
Maybe the guys got scared away from taking that responsibility by feminists, maybe it's today's jobs are so much more demanding than they used to be. Whatever it is, it's not good.

Oh, and just a side note: Giving your child to a daycare so you can work as a mother doesn't make you a bad mother at all (provided it is a well run daycare). It's been proven over and over that children who spent time in a daycare have overall better social/verbal/motoric skills than children who stayed home all day.
So, to play the advocatus diaboli: Are moms who stay home to raise their kids and don't bring them to a daycare bad moms? (or dads, since those exist too)

[damyanti]

Let me spell down my stance, because apperently no one here bothers to look at feminism beyond sterotypes of pop culture.

I admire women who live life on their own terms. I admire women of remarkable spirit. I admire women who have values and live according to them.

To me it is not about one thing. It is about the freedom of choice.

To some women it feels natural to stay at home and care for their children. Some of them I love and like. Some are wonderful women full of wisdom and strenght, some are lazy bimbos. All of whose choice I respect.

To some women those things feel unnatural. To some Femininity is about much more than being able to bear children and find a husband. Some want a great career, living life to the full and travelling the world. And are repulsed by an idea of being (solely) a sex object.

To say that one thing or another is more natural, to call those who think differently "illogical" when I can produce just as many examples to refute this statement as you can to support it, so dont even bother we will end up filling the entire forum, is vile. You can argue that you didnt say that "I dont have a choice", but it has been strongly implied that my choice is unnatural and therefor wrong.

The word "feminism" comes from one of the most beautiful words for a woman "femme".

Feminism really began as a term in France (feminisme) around the end of the 1800s. However, the principals behind this actual term - i.e., the struggle for equality - have been around since the beginning of the Western world. It came to the U.S. at the beginning of the 1900s via an article about a French Suffragist named Madeline Pelltier. But it didn't come into popular usage until the 1960s or 1970s. At that time, women's liberationist was actually the preferred term, but that started to get a bad name, so it was abandoned for feminism. Now, that has a bad name. However, what this example shows, and what I believe, is that the name is in many ways irrelevant because it's what's behind the name, i.e. equality, that is frightening to people. Equality commonly refers to the idea of equal treatment.
Therefore, we should stick with the name. Read the work of Nancy Cott for more on the history of the word.


Feminism is a discourse that involves various movements, theories, and philosophies which are concerned with the issue of gender difference, advocate equality for women, and campaign for women's rights and interests.

It is not one thing "or" another, it is all things feminine.

Personally I believe in common sense and golden middle, but that is beside the point.

You say you are not feminists?

One of the strongest examples of feminist activism is an organization called Concerned Women for America. It was founded in 1979. by Beverly LaHaye, the wife of fundamentalist Baptist minister and Moral Majority co-founder Tim LaHaye, after she saw Barbara Walters interviewing Betty Friedan. Friedan made the claim that her views represented those of a great many American women. LaHaye jumped up and declared, "Betty Friedan doesn't speak for me and I bet she doesn't speak for the majority of women in this country."

Though CWA is a multi-issue organization, its "special role" in the Christian Right has been that of an exemplary foil to the women's movement: the good, pro-family, "spirit-controlled" women, who, in LaHaye's words, are "truly liberated" because they are "totally submissive" to their husbands. CWA activists, though they may appear to be showing dangerous signs of independence, are in fact doing the will of their husbands and their Christian duty to promote pro-family values.

They sure fit nicely into your "emasculating militant" mold. (and because some here cant recognize it, this was sarcasm).



This article originally appeared as a "First Person" column in the Emory Report on March 4, 1996

"How many times have you heard someone say, "I'm not a feminist, but . . . . ." Fill in the blank: I agree that men and women should earn equal pay . . . I believe that sexism still exists . . . I agree that women should have access to birth control, regardless of age or marital status and so on and so forth. I've heard it often enough to conclude that these days women in all walks of life may be engaged in the practice of feminism but many won't call themselves feminists. Why is that and does it matter?

According to Susan Faludi, author of Backlash, the fear and loathing of feminism has been a "perpetual viral condition" in our society. Its symptoms subside and then resurface periodically. The flare-ups, just like the one we seem to be experiencing now, always seem to be triggered by the perception that women have made some inroads in the pursuit of equal rights.

Some say feminism is outdated. Others say it just doesn't work for everyone. Some say we've become too political, too organizational, too theoretical -- that we've lost our grassroots functioning. Others would prefer picking and choosing their causes within the women's movement.

The truth is that feminism has been wrought with controversy and schisms since its inception. For me one of the best things about feminism has always been its elbow room for dissension and its embrace of open communication. We don't all look alike. Why should we all think alike? The bad thing, however, is that every time we disagree on something, someone says, "Look at those women. They just can't get along."

In my generation, known as the "second wave," we came to feminism as adults, perhaps through a personal experience that converted us, or via a long, organic process. We listened to each other's stories -- often very different, but usually with shared themes -- and experienced a kind of rebirth. Young women of today, on the other hand, were born into a feminism with many different, and often seemingly contradictory, images. Some learned from the media. Others learned from teachers, books, mothers and sisters. Some of them identify themselves as the "third wavers."

The second wave worked to pass, enforce, and restore legislation to prohibit sex discrimination on the job and in schools. They worked fiercely so that we women could have free control over our bodies and access to full reproductive care. The hard lesson is this: the work is not over. Older and younger generations of feminists are in the trenches together these days fighting to remove the threats to these basic freedoms. And many are joined in an effort to support women candidates for public office so we can increase the numbers of women in decision-making positions.

But even among these two groups that share a commitment to social change, there is plenty of tension. Why is that? I don't profess to know all the reasons, but judging from the conversations I've been a part of, it seems to me that much of the controversy lies in the perception of an identity. In the earlier days of the movement, before it was so large (yes, folks, contrary to what you hear, feminism still beckons and burgeons) and so diverse, the notion that there was a correct way to be or look like a feminist was much less common. Nevertheless, a narrow stereotype developed over the years. It was fueled by racism, homophobia and classism inside and outside of the movement and garnered favor by the press and the political right. Unfortunately it also gains strength from people who consider themselves feminists.

It is no surprise to me that so many of the younger women, born into these schisms and stereotypes, shunned the feminist label that we wear as the pride of our identity. Some, like the second wavers, are choosing to recast the concepts and broaden the boundaries. I think that's a good thing. Many of my friends who, like me, have always rejected the notion of a shared definition of feminism, recognize that these women are offering us more choices. Choice has always been the power of feminism.

But there are other women who just don't want to be part of a political movement. They don't want to be considered revolutionary, or God forbid, man-haters. (That's another interesting point: Feminists have been alternately accused of hating men and of wanting to be just like them!) Well, in terms of the changes needed to create a society where women can live a full, self-determined life, we may need to be revolutionary! As to man-hating, I quite honestly don't know any feminists who sit around engaged in idle male bashing. Most of us are too busy doing more important things. Neither do we wish we were men. On the contrary, we celebrate our womanhood.

So while I've never been exactly sure of how to construct modern feminism, I am fairly certain about what it means to me. For me, personally, feminism has been the proactive opposition to patriarchy and sexist oppression. It is my belief in and fight for women's full participation in society, our equal access to the same rights, privileges, pay and status that men have historically enjoyed. There is much more. But anything less is just not acceptable to me.

Maybe to the extent that institutions accommodate women's roles, to the extent that feminism challenges discrimination and exclusion of women, it's relatively easy for most women (and men) to embrace. Just don't call them all feminists. It's okay to call me one, though."

[hopperboo]

I especially love women who live their lives one way, like have a job. But then tell me how all societies flaws are a blame of a working mother.

I think a lot of society flaws are due to the mother being out of the picture. Or being absent when they do finally come home. (That and of course marriages breaking up). A woman can have a career and still be a great mom. It's about the quality of the parenting when they get home and how much time is really spent at home with the child. In my opinion of course.

Do you know how my husband calls this thread? Jealousy thread!

Some of us are that strong, some of us can keep up and those that cant...- they are "ladies" and "not feminists".

So 'ladies' who aren't feminists (or do not consider themselves such) are jealous of those women who are hardcore feminists?

I am not jealous of a feminist woman. I am very happy with the thought of staying home and raising my children whenever that time comes.

A woman is a woman. One is a lady if they act as such.

I do concern myself with my career. I am one of, if not the best in my field. I take HUGE pride in that. I concern myself with my husband and my child just as much. My son is loved, well taken care of, accomplished and well behaved. I spend more time with him, than most "stay at homes" do.

Well good for you. (And in case that came off in a sarcastic manner, it's not sarcasm).

How exactly do you know how much time a stay at home mother spends with her child/children?

I do not think I am "equal in all ways" to a man. I am. I proved it.

Am I better than all men in all things? No. But I am better than most men in most things, that includes intelligence and (physical) strength.

I said they are equal on different ground. In different ways. I never said they deserved less respect than a man.

And do you know why there arent any Navy SEAL "females", beacuse women are NOT ALLOWED to be Navy SEALs!!!

Yeah, because 99.9% of women couldn't handle it physically. And I think that is being generous.

Every single one of them fought for equal rights, for fair treatment of themsleves and other women.

I never said a woman shouldn't have fair treatment and equal rights.

So I dont need anyone to tell me how "good" and "perfect" place the world was for women back then, I heard the true "hard facts" from their lips and diaries. And each of them looked and behaved like a lady, in a manner you will never live up to.

I never said the world was good and perfect. Children were brought up with better morals and values than today's children though. And I certainly don't think that is all due to women not raising their children, but I do think it's a big part of it.

I most certainly never chased my husband or any man. And once you get past all the romantic crap, the truth of the matter is - my husband married me because I wasnt a WAG, because I wasnt with him for his money. Because I didnt need him to take care of me, in any way, because he was fed up with all the little subs and their "rescue me" sob stories. [I]He married me because I was His equal.

So you think a stay home mother just wants a man for his money? Lovely. I think it's ironic it is that feminists want equal rights for women, though if a woman chooses to be a stay home mother than they are somehow 'lower class' than a working mother and a feminist woman.

[AdrianaAurora]

So you think a stay home mother just wants a man for his money? Lovely. I think it's ironic it is that feminists want equal rights for women, though if a woman chooses to be a stay home mother than they are somehow 'lower class' than a working mother and a feminist woman.

I am a working mother.

I don't think a woman who stays at home is "lower class".

But lets look at the reality:

A million times repeated scenario - a boy and a girl hook up, get married, they have children and she is the one who stays at home.

I deal with and see all types of stay-at-homes wives/mothers on a daily basis. With some, I am friends and we talk about everything.

But if I have to discuss something important, and especially if its money/business related, her opinion - whether you like it or not - at the end doesn't matter. And I have nothing to do with that. Her husband naturally takes over the conversation, he talks to me as an equal, but sidelines his wife. And this guys aren't chauvinists! They are model and loving husbands and fathers, some even ask for their wives opinion, but then they just decide over it, because he knows better, , even when they dont. And remember, these are just vanilla couples. They never assume they know better than me.

Back to my example, boy will carry the girl on the palm of his hand, until he finds one younger and more interesting. Boom, divorce!
Do you know what half of the people (usually conservative types, the kind that speak against "feminists" here) say, (this is based on countless examples, I can provide transcripts), in short - she is just a leach, he is the one who earned the money! Its the feminists and liberal types that say, she is the one who supported and enabled (the bastard) to do that, raised his kids, kept his house - she is entitled to half.

So now the boy and the girl are divorced, and where does that leave her? Her sense of identity is crushed. If she is really lucky, she got a fer alimony settlement and he is willing to pay it without a fuss; but people will still talk about it behind her back. If she is not so lucky, she will have to get a job and what will be her prospects, or live of benefits.

IMO, on this I am with men. Regardless of which party initiated the divorce, I don't think He should be expected to pay spousal support to a woman who is no longer his wife. And its still men who who usually pay alimony, because men are usually bigger earners!

p.s. 99.9% of men cant handle SEAL training, so whats your point? That because you couldn't, its fer to that one woman who can, that she isn't even given a chance? Nice.

[MMI]

I am a working mother.

I don't think a woman who stays at home is "lower class".

But lets look at the reality:

A million times repeated scenario - a boy and a girl hook up, get married, they have children and she is the one who stays at home.

I deal with and see all types of stay-at-homes wives/mothers on a daily basis. With some, I am friends and we talk about everything.

But if I have to discuss something important, and especially if its money/business related, her opinion - whether you like it or not - at the end doesn't matter. And I have nothing to do with that. Her husband naturally takes over the conversation, he talks to me as an equal, but sidelines his wife. And this guys aren't chauvinists! They are model and loving husbands and fathers, some even ask for their wives opinion, but then they just decide over it, because he knows better, , even when they dont. And remember, these are just vanilla couples. They never assume they know better than me.

Back to my example, boy will carry the girl on the palm of his hand, until he finds one younger and more interesting. Boom, divorce!
Do you know what half of the people (usually conservative types, the kind that speak against "feminists" here) say, (this is based on countless examples, I can provide transcripts), in short - she is just a leach, he is the one who earned the money! Its the feminists and liberal types that say, she is the one who supported and enabled (the bastard) to do that, raised his kids, kept his house - she is entitled to half.

So now the boy and the girl are divorced, and where does that leave her? Her sense of identity is crushed. If she is really lucky, she got a fer alimony settlement and he is willing to pay it without a fuss; but people will still talk about it behind her back. If she is not so lucky, she will have to get a job and what will be her prospects, or live of benefits.

IMO, on this I am with men. Regardless of which party initiated the divorce, I don't think He should be expected to pay spousal support to a woman who is no longer his wife. And its still men who who usually pay alimony, because men are usually bigger earners!

p.s. 99.9% of men cant handle SEAL training, so whats your point? That because you couldn't, its fer to that one woman who can, that she isn't even given a chance? Nice.

My God! If you truly believe that, you are sooo sexist!! No - I don't believe you do belive it truly. You are making a point by exaggeration, surely.

That's ok then. Feminist propaganda.

But, for your information, I am aware of many women who "control the purse strings" - it probably divides up into equal numbers. (Even wifey quizzes me on what I've used my credit card for sometimes ...)

[AdrianaAurora]

You have all these preconceived notions about who Feminists are. And yet it is you who constantly is trying to make this into that men and women are enemies. I don't see it that way, I think men are wonderful creatures, that doesn't mean that I am blind about how things really are. All I would like is for the society to outgrow the point where I have to defend my right to have a job, hold the position of power and earn my own money. Its pathetic that I still have to.


... is necessary because they have no other useful role in society than to be "provider".

Thats not true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My God! If you truly believe that, you are sooo sexist!! No - I don't believe you do belive it truly. You are making a point by exaggeration, surely.

That's ok then.

You do have other uses.

Everybody knows that men are better cooks. And while is possible without you, its not nearly as fun. I do need someone to . And some of you are actually nice to look at

I am aware of many women who "control the purse strings" - it probably divides up into equal numbers. (Even wifey
quizzes me on what I've used my credit card for sometimes ...)

How people choose to negotiate their relationship between their four walls - I couldn't care less.


But when you say that women shouldn't work - to make room for someone less capable - thats sexist bullshit. It wakes my inner Domme, . Men and women are entitled to the same (job) opportunities and may the best candidate win.

[hopperboo]

I don't think a woman who stays at home is "lower class".

Yes you do. One just has to read your posts to realize this.

Back to my example, boy will carry the girl on the palm of his hand, until he finds one younger and more interesting. Boom, divorce!
Do you know what half of the people (usually conservative types, the kind that speak against "feminists" here) say, (this is based on countless examples, I can provide transcripts), in short - she is just a leach, he is the one who earned the money!

Then I am hoping to be a leach. I want the ability to raise my own children.

p.s. 99.9% of men cant handle SEAL training, so whats your point? That because you couldn't, its fer to that one woman who can, that she isn't even given a chance? Nice.

I am not a supporter of women being in the Special Ops. SEAL or otherwise.

[AdrianaAurora]

I am not a supporter of women being in the Special Ops. SEAL or otherwise.

You seem to think that you are better than women who choose to find something meaningful in working outside of the house, after marriage and kids. And yet you find us threatening. You might want to ask yourself why.

Might I point out, that you have a choice whether or not to stay at home. How dare you presume that there is not a single woman out there capable of being a SEAL. She should be entitled to make that choice for herself. And given an opportunity to prove herself.

If you like, we can apply your double standard to you and see how it feels - I am not in support of women like you being in the payed workforce. You cost money. Money is wasted on your training - and then one day you just don't show up at work. Its women like you that make the question, "are you planning to have a baby and getting married soon?" a legitimate one and yet employers who ask are called chauvinistic and sexist. It results in lesser pay for all women. You cost those "young males" their jobs. And he hates feminists for it, .

[hopperboo]

You seem to think that you are better than women who choose to find something meaningful in working outside of the house, after marriage and kids.

No, not at all. My mom was a full time teacher while I was growing up. I see nothing wrong at all with a woman who wants to keep working (part or full time) after a children. I do however find women who chose their careers over their husband and children to be lacking. And in case I am not making myself clear on this point that goes for men that choose their careers over their wives and children too.

How dare you presume that there is not a single woman out there capable of being a SEAL. She should be entitled to make that choice for herself. And given an opportunity to prove herself.

*Shrugs.*

If you like, we can apply your double standard

What double standard is that?

I am not in support of women like you being in the payed workforce.

Women like me?

Oh, you mean women who are or want to be stay at home wives/moms?

and then one day you just don't show up at work.

I don't give a fuck if you want to rip at my opinions. But don't you dare slander my integrity. I would never 'just not show up at work.'

[AdrianaAurora]

I don't give a fuck if you want to rip at my opinions. But don't you dare slander my integrity. I would never 'just not show up at work.'