Hell

[leo9]

I agree with denuseri, this is basically the same as asking if there is a god. Without gods there can be no heaven or hell.

But then, is the reverse true? Can you have gods without having heaven or hell?

As so often, you assume that all religions are essentially the same as mainstream Xianity. But even within Xianity this isn't a given. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in heaven and hell in the sense of an ongoing reality, or in the immortaity of the soul: they believe that when you're dead you're dead, and stay that way till Judgement Day, when the saved will be raised to physical immortality on Earth while the rest just stay dead and gone.

It would seem to me that, if you define heaven as a place of reward where your soul lives with the gods, then you must have a hell, a place of punishment, even if it's only a place without the gods. This seems to be the basic concept behind most religions.

There is a whole tract of religions that don't believe in an afterlife at all, except as a transition lounge between incarnations. And the Northern Tradition, while it envisaged great lives being rewarded with a continuation among the gods, saw the rest as going to a cold limbo whether they'd been good or bad. (Reputedly, one of the reasons they fell for Xianity, which offered heaven to ordinary folk without their having to do great deeds to earn it.) There is some evidence that the classical Greeks shared this view before they picked up the idea of hell from the East.

What about heaven and hell without gods? Well, that doesn't work! Who decides who goes where?

According to Hindu and Buddhist tradition, it just happens: karma is a natural force, souls rise or fall as weights do. You can say prayers for the dead to help them to a better incarnation, but that's like magic, a way of giving reality a push, not an appeal to the gods as it would be in the Xian tradition.

I think being an atheist is easier. No gods, no heaven, no hell. Just here and now.

I agree, it's simpler. But only in the same way that living alone is simpler than having lovers.

[Thorne]

As so often, you assume that all religions are essentially the same as mainstream Xianity. But even within Xianity this isn't a given. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in heaven and hell in the sense of an ongoing reality, or in the immortaity of the soul: they believe that when you're dead you're dead, and stay that way till Judgement Day, when the saved will be raised to physical immortality on Earth while the rest just stay dead and gone.

Forgive me, but I was raised Catholic, essentially main-stream Xian, so that's where the bulk of my experience lies. But regardless of the terminology involved, the concept of virtually all religions is similar: be good so the gods will reward you.

There is a whole tract of religions that don't believe in an afterlife at all, except as a transition lounge between incarnations. And the Northern Tradition, while it envisaged great lives being rewarded with a continuation among the gods, saw the rest as going to a cold limbo whether they'd been good or bad. (Reputedly, one of the reasons they fell for Xianity, which offered heaven to ordinary folk without their having to do great deeds to earn it.) There is some evidence that the classical Greeks shared this view before they picked up the idea of hell from the East.

Still, you have the reward/punishment concept. Whether you call it heaven or not, it's still an afterlife (or afterdeath, actually) place among the gods. And you are punished by being sent to hell, or limbo, or Brooklyn, whatever you call it. Or by non-existence. It's still hell, for all intents and purposes.

According to Hindu and Buddhist tradition, it just happens: karma is a natural force, souls rise or fall as weights do.

As I stated in the above post, this is just replacing anthropomorphic gods with something else. Still the same concept. And isn't the whole purpose supposed to be to achieve some form of nirvana or high state of purity? Sounds like heaven to me.

You can say prayers for the dead to help them to a better incarnation, but that's like magic, a way of giving reality a push, not an appeal to the gods as it would be in the Xian tradition.

It's still a belief in magic, no matter who you are praying to, or for.

I agree, it's simpler. But only in the same way that living alone is simpler than having lovers.

Actually, I would disagree. It's much harder to live alone, knowing that you are the only being responsible for what you do. There are no gods to appeal to, no fairies to trip you up, no golden palace in the sky to go home to when you die. And when the world throws you a curve ball (fire, flood, earthquake, etc.) it's ultimately you alone who are going to have to pull yourself up and get yourself back into the game.

It's much easier to just lie there, whimpering, wondering why your gods have abandoned you.