Burka Rage

[TantricSoul]

Agian I ask: Has anyone given any thought as to what these women are going to have to wear in lieu of burkas or how much they will themselves restirct or have their movments restricted becuase they are banned?

Unfortunately the majority in France seems to be focused on their fear of getting blown up by Burka wearing terrorists or perhaps their fear of those that don't blend in, not on those actually affected by the law. They seem to be ok with the idea that many muslim women will be prisoners in their own homes because they wont want to break the law.

[Thorne]

Unfortunately the majority in France seems to be focused on their fear of getting blown up by Burka wearing terrorists or perhaps their fear of those that don't blend in, not on those actually affected by the law. They seem to be ok with the idea that many muslim women will be prisoners in their own homes because they wont want to break the law.

Is it because they won't break the law, or because their husbands/fathers won't let them? How many of those women would gladly give up those restrictive clothes if they weren't afraid of being murdered? That's what it comes down to, you know. They are taught from early childhood that they are property, Muslim women who must always obey their fathers, their brothers, their husbands. And the penalty for disobedience is death.

Aside from that, laws based on protecting the public must always be given preference over laws based on superstition and wishful thinking.

[Ozme52]

Better to write a law that protects women from being forced by another to wear a veil in public or private.

It would be good if we could have such freedom of dress, but how would you enforce such a law?

By ensuring the police take complaints seriously. It used to be the same regarding domestic violence and spousal abuse. There was a time that such complaints were basically ignored. No more. I think those who choose to wear a burka should be allowed to do so. Those who are threatening violence against those who choose not to wear a burka are the ones we need to eliminate from western societies.

As to the other, I do understand the difficulty of the situation, where to set the limits. I can only say that I would not want a teacher with the burka so I cannot see who she is, nor a doctor, nor a dentist. I simply need to see peoples faces. But that is beside the point as such, as I can simply choose some that do not wear it.

Exactly. Their choice to wear it, yours to choose other service providers who don't.

Those kinds of services are, of course, up to the individual. But what about the convenience store clerk who is confronted by someone covered from head to toe. Should he be allowed to refuse service, or even admission into the store, in such an instance? What about banks? Or airports?

Yes, the intent is as a symbol of religious belief. But those symbols, and others perhaps, must be set aside when they conflict with the safety of the public. People can claim almost anything to be a symbol of religious belief. Would you be willing to allow someone to board your plane with a shotgun, just because he claimed it to be a religious symbol?

Yet there are solutions. If it is a symbol, let a symbol suffice. Sikh men are required to carry a knife in their belly sash. It's a safety issue in the workplace. How do you bar weapons but allow for religious freedom? In the US that was resolved by compromise. The knife is less than an inch long. Less dangerous than a four inch plastic knife passed out at work luncheons.

[Thorne]

Yet there are solutions. If it is a symbol, let a symbol suffice. Sikh men are required to carry a knife in their belly sash. It's a safety issue in the workplace. How do you bar weapons but allow for religious freedom? In the US that was resolved by compromise. The knife is less than an inch long. Less dangerous than a four inch plastic knife passed out at work luncheons.

I wonder, though, if they would be allowed to carry them onto planes, or into government buildings. Or even if they should. Even a one inch blade could puncture an artery, or take out an eye.

But even so, carrying such an item does not obscure ones identity. I'm not sure how you could have a "symbolic" covering that didn't cover the face, when many Muslim women are not permitted to show so much as an eyelash in public.

[Ozme52]

I wonder, though, if they would be allowed to carry them onto planes, or into government buildings. Or even if they should. Even a one inch blade could puncture an artery, or take out an eye.

So can a plastic spoon. It's irrelevent.

But even so, carrying such an item does not obscure ones identity. I'm not sure how you could have a "symbolic" covering that didn't cover the face, when many Muslim women are not permitted to show so much as an eyelash in public.

Then those who do (voluntarily) can't fly or agree to reveal themselves privately to a female TSA agent.

Again, I argue for freedom of choice, for oneself, and not for those who would impose their will on others.

[Thorne]

I argue for freedom of choice, for oneself, and not for those who would impose their will on others.

Freedom of choice is noble, certainly, but we place restrictions on people's choices every day. People are not permitted to walk around naked in public, though they may choose to do so in private. Restaurants can refuse service to anyone they deem improperly dressed ("No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"). The speed you "choose" to drive a vehicle is limited by the law. If these choices can be restricted, why not the ability to cover ones face?

Then those who do (voluntarily) can't fly or agree to reveal themselves privately to a female TSA agent.

Exactly. They are not permitted to fly, so their choice is limited. Or they can reveal themselves to the proper authorities, under controlled conditions. That's a reasonable compromise. But that might not be an option when entering a bank or a store.

[leo9]

Freedom of choice is noble, certainly, but we place restrictions on people's choices every day. People are not permitted to walk around naked in public, though they may choose to do so in private. Restaurants can refuse service to anyone they deem improperly dressed ("No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"). The speed you "choose" to drive a vehicle is limited by the law. If these choices can be restricted, why not the ability to cover ones face?

I would believe in this if the call were for a ban on all face-hiding costumes, such as dark-visor motorcycle helmets. Some sensitive locations, such as banks, require people to take off such helmets and pull down hoods at the entrance, and with good reason. If someone wanted to argue for extending this to all public places, I would still think it an over-reaction, but at least I would believe it was honestly about public safety.

In the Caribbean area of Leeds where I once lived, the young gangstas used to hang out on the street corners in "ninja masks" - hoods plus bandanas over the lower face (and shades too, usually). It was calculatedly intimidating, giving out the message that they could do what they liked because they couldn't be named. I never heard anyone campaign to make that illegal, though the justification would be far stronger; they weren't maybe hiding a criminal, they were known criminals.

When one particular group's freedom is restricted while other equally valid targets are ignored, that's dishonest. If the target group is ethnically defined, it's textbook racism.

[thir]

By ensuring the police take complaints seriously. It used to be the same regarding domestic violence and spousal abuse. There was a time that such complaints were basically ignored. No more. I think those who choose to wear a burka should be allowed to do so. Those who are threatening violence against those who choose not to wear a burka are the ones we need to eliminate from western societies.

Yes, in theory I agree. That is so say, people should have a right to choose for themselves, except where it may be dangerous for others.

But it is easier said than done. A complaint over a violent spouse does not nessecarily save the person complaining, even today.

In DK we have "honour-killings" and nobody helps young girls who want to run away and live as they want.

Protecting women who are forced into the burka will not be easy.