Subsidized everything

[fetishdj]

Good god, you don't want to be in Europe... Anyway, I thought Europe was trying desperately to turn itself into 'the United states of Europe'.

You could always rejoin the UK. I am sure we'll have you back. We'll even let you keep your president as some form of official colonial governer

Seriously, I think the US constitution and the 'ideals of the founding fathers' are as open to interpretation as many religious texts. I have seen many use them as defence for actions which I am sure are against the ideals as I understand them. This is part of the problem. Everyone in America follows THE American dream and THE ideals of the founding fathers but actually they are only following THEIR versions of that which disagree with all the other interpretations.

One thing I feel needs to be asked... as a hypothetical exercise, if the American constitution were to be rewritten today - completely and entirely from scratch, using the modern political and international set up as it is - how much of it would be different? Which amendments would still be in place, which would be changed and which would be removed altogether as entirely pointless. I ask because I read something about the Magna Carta recently (about the closest we have to a written constitution...) which stated that pretty much all of it is now obsolete.

[Thorne]

You could always rejoin the UK. I am sure we'll have you back. We'll even let you keep your president as some form of official colonial governer

ANOTHER Brit wanting the colonies back! Get over it guys. We're here to stay.

Seriously, I think the US constitution and the 'ideals of the founding fathers' are as open to interpretation as many religious texts. I have seen many use them as defence for actions which I am sure are against the ideals as I understand them. This is part of the problem.

Yes, it is a problem, and many have perverted the spirit of the Constitution while paying lip-service to its words. That's why interpretation of the Constitution lies in the hands of the Supreme Court. Theoretically at least, there should be enough intelligence among those 9 paragons of the law to keep us at least close to both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution.

One thing I feel needs to be asked... as a hypothetical exercise, if the American constitution were to be rewritten today - completely and entirely from scratch, using the modern political and international set up as it is - how much of it would be different?

Sadly, if there were a need to rewrite the Constitution I fear it would never get done. There are damned few politicians in this country with the brains or the guts to set aside their own petty desires for the good of the country. It would split the country into half-a-dozen feuding nation-states, turning us into the equivalent of 19th century Europe, with 21st century weapons. It would be the end of the United States of America.

[fetishdj]

ANOTHER Brit wanting the colonies back! Get over it guys. We're here to stay.

You can stay where you wish... all that would change is who you pay your taxes to

Yes, it is a problem, and many have perverted the spirit of the Constitution while paying lip-service to its words. That's why interpretation of the Constitution lies in the hands of the Supreme Court. Theoretically at least, there should be enough intelligence among those 9 paragons of the law to keep us at least close to both the spirit and the letter of the Constitution.

Yes, the supreme court should keep things in balance.

Of course this is something we can blame the Irish for, you know... they had a legal system based on lawyers long before any other culture in Europe

Sadly, if there were a need to rewrite the Constitution I fear it would never get done. There are damned few politicians in this country with the brains or the guts to set aside their own petty desires for the good of the country. It would split the country into half-a-dozen feuding nation-states, turning us into the equivalent of 19th century Europe, with 21st century weapons. It would be the end of the United States of America.

So, are you arguing that you need an external threat (i.e an oppresive monarchy) to force the politicians to work together sufficiently to acheive something like the American constitution (which was an amazing achievement for its time)?

I do wonder sometimes if the various member states of the US remember that it was not all that long ago (late 19th century for many) when they were still independent 'countries' rather than part of the union. I know it is common for outsiders to think that 'the USA' is one country rather than a federal organisation of seperate states (with thier own laws) but is this attitude common in the US as well?

[Thorne]

So, are you arguing that you need an external threat (i.e an oppresive monarchy) to force the politicians to work together sufficiently to acheive something like the American constitution (which was an amazing achievement for its time)?

No, what I'm saying is that I doubt modern politicians, or businessmen as most of our founders were, could establish any kind of legal system which even theoretically made them no better than the average man on the street in the eyes of the law. The Constitution was indeed an amazing achievement, one which I don't think modern men could even approach.

I do wonder sometimes if the various member states of the US remember that it was not all that long ago (late 19th century for many) when they were still independent 'countries' rather than part of the union. I know it is common for outsiders to think that 'the USA' is one country rather than a federal organisation of seperate states (with thier own laws) but is this attitude common in the US as well?

While this is theoretically, and even constitutionally, true, in reality the federal government has usurped many of the states' rights over the years, generally for seemingly good reasons, at least at the time. For the most part this has been a good thing, making us a more united country and far more powerful in world politics. Which allowed the US to pull British butts from the fires of two German wars, after all.

[fetishdj]

While this is theoretically, and even constitutionally, true, in reality the federal government has usurped many of the states' rights over the years, generally for seemingly good reasons, at least at the time. For the most part this has been a good thing, making us a more united country and far more powerful in world politics. Which allowed the US to pull British butts from the fires of two German wars, after all.

Eventually...

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time...). I think everyone seemed to have just got bored of monarchy all at the same time I agree that I don't think you will get the same idealism now.

I think Europe's problems at the moment is that they are not states as the American states are/were but countries that are far more different and older and stubborn. Most of whom have ruled over most of the others at some point or other. The UKs alliance with France, for example, is very recent and we have been at war with them far longer than we have ever been at peace. So we'll never get that unity, at least not for a long while.

[Thorne]

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time...). I think everyone seemed to have just got bored of monarchy all at the same time I agree that I don't think you will get the same idealism now.

I think a big part of it was a growing understanding that nobles were not the be all and end all of life. With more and more books available to even the common people, more people learning to read and gain an education, the early beginnings of the industrial revolution supplying jobs, all conspired to break the nobles' hold on the minds of their subjects and allow those subjects to believe they really could be free.

I think Europe's problems at the moment is that they are not states as the American states are/were but countries that are far more different and older and stubborn. Most of whom have ruled over most of the others at some point or other. The UKs alliance with France, for example, is very recent and we have been at war with them far longer than we have ever been at peace. So we'll never get that unity, at least not for a long while.

I agree, it's going to be a long road before there can be any hope of real unity, but the seeds have been planted and hopefully they will take root and grow. The best thing that can happen to mankind at this time would be for people to realize that centuries-old feuds between now mostly defunct noble houses are no longer relevant and should be forgotten.

I won't hold my breath, though.

[tedteague]

[QUOTE=fetishdj;874925]Eventually...

I think the period was one of idealism in politics. The American revolution, the French revolution, the Jacobin uprisings in the UK (Tolpuddle, Peterloo), even the start of communism (I think I remember Marx writing his famously misunderstood book about this time

marx wrote in the 1840s

[DuncanONeil]

Rewritten? Today? With Progressives in charge that is easy. The document would 180 degrees off from its current policies. Rights would accrue to the Government and the citizenry would be restricted!

Good god, you don't want to be in Europe... Anyway, I thought Europe was trying desperately to turn itself into 'the United states of Europe'.

You could always rejoin the UK. I am sure we'll have you back. We'll even let you keep your president as some form of official colonial governer

Seriously, I think the US constitution and the 'ideals of the founding fathers' are as open to interpretation as many religious texts. I have seen many use them as defence for actions which I am sure are against the ideals as I understand them. This is part of the problem. Everyone in America follows THE American dream and THE ideals of the founding fathers but actually they are only following THEIR versions of that which disagree with all the other interpretations.

One thing I feel needs to be asked... as a hypothetical exercise, if the American constitution were to be rewritten today - completely and entirely from scratch, using the modern political and international set up as it is - how much of it would be different? Which amendments would still be in place, which would be changed and which would be removed altogether as entirely pointless. I ask because I read something about the Magna Carta recently (about the closest we have to a written constitution...) which stated that pretty much all of it is now obsolete.