Occupy Wall Street Movement

[thir]

Maybe if they were actually WORKING, instead of sitting on their asses protesting, they wouldn't be GETTING poorer!

I do not understand this complete faith that there are always jobs for anyone who wants to work - in the theeth of all evidence to the contrary.

[Thorne]

I do not understand this complete faith that there are always jobs for anyone who wants to work - in the theeth of all evidence to the contrary.

Preaching to the choir, thir. I've been out of work for two years now, though for the past year I haven't been actively looking, for health reasons. But I'm almost at retirement age anyway, and because my wife and I have saved all our lives we're not suffering.

But I'm not sitting out there complaining that people who ARE working are making too much money, either.

[thir]

Preaching to the choir, thir. I've been out of work for two years now, though for the past year I haven't been actively looking, for health reasons. But I'm almost at retirement age anyway, and because my wife and I have saved all our lives we're not suffering.

Than I am not sure I understand your position, which sounded to me like if you just up and work everything will be fine.

But I'm not sitting out there complaining that people who ARE working are making too much money, either.

But not complaining that there isn't work either? We are depending on work - we can't all just go out and shoot a dear. Isn't there something wrong with this picture?

[Thorne]

Than I am not sure I understand your position, which sounded to me like if you just up and work everything will be fine.

Sometimes the best way to get a job is to have a job. Even if you have to temporarily take something at minimum wage. (I know, it's not always that simple.) My point is, actively looking for work is a far better option than complaining that you're being cheated by big business just because they make more money than you think is right. The way to correct the system is to get INTO the system, then make changes. The problem is, once people DO get in, and start making big money, they no longer see the need for change. We are, at our most basic, a greedy species.

[thir]

Sometimes the best way to get a job is to have a job. Even if you have to temporarily take something at minimum wage. (I know, it's not always that simple.) My point is, actively looking for work is a far better option than complaining that you're being cheated by big business just because they make more money than you think is right. The way to correct the system is to get INTO the system, then make changes. The problem is, once people DO get in, and start making big money, they no longer see the need for change. We are, at our most basic, a greedy species.

From what I know of what is happening around me, people who complain right now are complaining because they cannot get a job. I know in DK we have 3-100 applicants to each job, depending of what kind of job. When I was working we had another top in unemployment, and in my field we had more applicants for each job than we could possibly even answer. I do not see where you can conclude that people who complain do so out of lazyness. Where do you have your facts from?

A while back we had a demonstration in London with a million people, all from differen areas of society, and all ages. Are they all lazy?

A Danish politician - very new and inexperienced - happened to say in a debate that high unemployment was good, because you could keep salaires down. The others hushed her at once and started talking about something else.

I can tell you, from experience with people close around me, that the when the burden of hopeless unemployment is merged with the scorn of 'why don't you try harder', people go into depression and a suicide rate about 5 times the rest of the population. Because not only are you not wanted and cannot take care of yourself, but your human dignity is taken away.

[Thorne]

A while back we had a demonstration in London with a million people, all from differen areas of society, and all ages. Are they all lazy?

That's not what I'm saying at all! I simply said that they would be better served by working within the system. Yes, some are lazy. Like any group of people. Some are working, but barely getting by. Some have good jobs. The problem is that they seem to want successful businesses to give money back to their customers. They castigate those who make a profit. They don't seem to understand that, if you remove the lure of profit from industry, you won't have industry. There will be no incentive for businesses to keep on doing business.

Do these people honestly believe we would be better off if everyone in the world got just what they needed to live (housing, food, medicines) and nothing more? That anyone who makes more money than they need for these things should have that money taken from them to pay for those 'less fortunate'? Where is the reason to even work, then? Why bother to strive for improvement? It all makes no sense to me.

[thir]

That's not what I'm saying at all!

Got you wrong again, then. Sorry.

I simply said that they would be better served by working within the system.

Thorne - the jobs aren't there!

Yes, some are lazy. Like any group of people. Some are working, but barely getting by. Some have good jobs. The problem is that they seem to want successful businesses to give money back to their customers. They castigate those who make a profit. They don't seem to understand that, if you remove the lure of profit from industry, you won't have industry. There will be no incentive for businesses to keep on doing business.

People just want a job, so they can live. They can't go out and shoot a deer.
The business of business is to get them as cheaply as possible, and make as much profit as possible.
Thus the clash of interests.

Problem now is not just the crisis, but the fact that many busnesses automate their production, so less jobs.

The businesses get help when they don't do well. Why?? Acccording to other parts of the system you mention, this should not happen, businesses should weed themselves out. First check.

If businesses could not score a profit, do you think the world would stand still? No progress? No one wanting to do [I]anything[I]? A statement heard often, but never proven! Personally I don't think human beings are lotus eaters by nature.

Do these people honestly believe we would be better off if everyone in the world got just what they needed to live (housing, food, medicines) and nothing more?

It would never just be 'nothing more'. People are so much more than that!

That anyone who makes more money than they need for these things should have that money taken from them to pay for those 'less fortunate'?

There goes the American dream again: there are always jobs, always education, if you want it. In the teeth of all evidence!

Where is the reason to even work, then? Why bother to strive for improvement? It all makes no sense to me.

Human beings will always want to work, one way or the other. We are not designed to sit on our buts all day long, staring vaguely ahead...? Moving about and doing stuff is built into us.

Maybe not in the Lutheranian way (again taken from Christianity, even atheists carry the Christian values in them: In the sweat of your face you shall earn your bread) - not work for work's sake, but doing stuff.